Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13
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Reply with quote | #1 |
Dear Itchyear Board, I wanted to ask a question about the assumption that God's relationship to man changes. My undersanding of dispensationalism is that God works different ways at different times. Most midacts pastors seem to think that it was through obedience to law in the OT and faith in Christ alone in the NT. A works vs. faith distinction. But I don't understand this--we know that Israel could not keep the law even if it tried! God always had to step-in and offer them grace for their offenses. Why do dispensationalists think that God relates to men differently at different times when the all-time-necessary-intervention by God to men is through grace? Since grace was always necessary for forgiveness, why isn't the age of grace not only now but was there in the OT as well? Thanks for your help, Michael |
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Ray
Moderator
Registered: 06/25/06
Posts: 77
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Reply with quote | #2 |
There are fundamental difference between law and grace. Under the law, Israel was under a performance system but we are under grace. Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Deuteronomy 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us. Under grace, Christ did it all and we are depending what He did on the cross for us. Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Romans 11 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. I know that Israel could not keep the law but they told the Lord God that they could. How can we say that God is not dealing with different people in different ages in different ways. We are under a pure grace system where God does it all in the OT they were saved by faith but had to prove it by their works. Compare these two verses and see how God is dealing with people in different ways. Romans 4: 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. James 2: 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Paul write to the body of Christ and tells us that we are justified by faith without works. James writes to the Nation of Israel and tells them that they are justified by works and not by faith only. Is God not doing things different? |
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Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13
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Reply with quote | #3 |
Ray, I think that you put your finger on the problem that I have with dispensationalism as one's guide to understanding the Bible. Israel indeed had laws, commandments, etc. that they needed to follow as the scriptures you listed indicate. Could they do it? No. Israel constantly failed time after time after time and had to be rescued by God's grace. I think that it is a mistake to claim then that Israel was under law as opposed to the grace we have. Why? Because Israel was dependent upon God's grace to save them just as we are, since the law could not save. We know that Christ was the end of the law, the perfect sacrifice. So, although Israel was given the law Paul makes it clear that the law itself could not save. Only God's grace can do that. Then why the law in the first place? Paul tells us it was like a school master--bringing us finally to Christ. |
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Ray
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Registered: 06/25/06
Posts: 77
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Reply with quote | #4 |
Michael I am sorry to hear that you believe that the Scriptures are not divided into dispensations. If God dealt with all people alike then all people would have the same promises. You say that all people were saved by grace and it does not matter what age you live in salvation is the same. OT saints was not looking forward to the cross like we are looking back to the cross. They were looking for a King that would come and destroy their ermines so they could have the land that God had promised them. Let me tell you the differences in the dispensation of grace that we are living in today and the dispensation of the law that Israel was living in before the mystery was revealed to the Apostle Paul.
No person in the Old Testament was cleared of his sins, even after their sins are forgiven. Ex 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. The sins of Nation of Israel will not be forgiven it until the Lord sits up his kingdom on earth. Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. No person in the Old Testament was placed into the Body of Christ; no one in the OT was spiritually circumcised and the Spirit sealed no one in the OT. 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The Apostle Paul tells us that he was given the dispensation of grace, if his ministry and message was not different from Peter then how do we explain how that their gospels are different. Peter: Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Paul: 1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15: 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: If their gospel was different how could we say that how they obtained grace was also the same?
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Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13
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Reply with quote | #5 |
Ray, even when we consider Dt 6:24-25, "And the LORD commanded us to do all of these statutes to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousess, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our GOD, as he hath commmanded us,"--Israel could not do it. If their salvation was only in the law then there would be no salvation at all. It was only because of God's grace that Israel continued to exist at all. God's grace maintained their life--the law never could because they could not keep it. They may not have know about Christ, but through his death the law was perfected and past, present, and future sins were forgiven. |
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Ray
Moderator
Registered: 06/25/06
Posts: 77
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Reply with quote | #6 |
Accordiing to what you are telling me that salvation before the cross and after the cross is the same and there is no different. If that was true then we need to take all of what God told the Nation of Israel to do out of the Bible and we only need one page not 66 Books. Where do I find in the OT that Christ died for my sins on the cross? We need to do more than divide our Bible if God is not dealing with people in different ages in different way. |
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Ray
Moderator
Registered: 06/25/06
Posts: 77
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Reply with quote | #7 |
Michael, check out this verse. It has been giving people problems for years. They try to say that Abraham is being justified before men. How could this be possible when there were no men around when he was going to kill Issac? James 2: 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Once again compare this with this verse. Romans 4: 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Are they different? These two verses made me start dividing my Bible and to understand that God is dealing with different people in different way in different dispensations. |
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