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Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13

    08/29/07 at 01:15 PM
  Reply with quote#1

I wanted to ask a question. I've heard that in this dispensation healing has been done away with. Well, of course God can heal but the power to heal by individuals has been done away with. The evidence for this is that if individuals could heal then they could go to hospitals and get everyone well. Aside from a particular individual being able to heal others (a "healer") what about faith for healing (and not be a "healer" per see)? Most people say faith for healing is not available anymore either since many persons have believed for healing but didn't receive it. Maybe we don't always have the faith we think we have for healing to take place. That is, unless we build our faith for healing (and not just think we have it) healing won't take place.

Ray
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    08/29/07 at 11:16 PM
  Reply with quote#2

Do we have miraculous healings today as were done by Jesus and his apostles and prophets during his earthly ministry?

1. Healing was INSTANTANEOUS.

Acts 3:7-8 And He took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.” Lame since birth, he stood, walked, and leaped!

Mark 5:29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

2. Healing was UNLIMITED.

Matt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. 

Matthew 15:31 He made the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

3. Healing was COMPLETE.  

Matt 9:30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it. 

Matthew 9:20-22 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21: For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22: But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. 

4. Healing was MIRACULOUS.  Not only did Jesus heal the sick, but he also raised the dead.

Luke 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

 He healed Lazarus after being dead for four days!

If one is to claim promises for healing from the scripture, why then go to a doctor, or have surgery, or take medication? Scripture shows no examples of God using these things for healing.

Healing was not only miraculous in and of itself it was for a SIGN. (I Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign...” and John 4:48 says, “Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.”) Mark 16:17-18 says, “These signs shall follow them that believe; ...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Notice, it does NOT say, “Maybe they shall recover,” nor does it say, “Some of them will recover.”

We need to study the scriptures and see that the sign nation (Israel) and her prophetic program were interrupted by a mystery program which kept secret since the world began, BUT NOW is made manifest (Romans 16:25-26) The mystery program is what the apostle Paul calls the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed.“ (Eph 3:2-7)

In order to know God’s blessings and promises to us living in the dispensation of grace, we must study the scriptures rightly divided: they can only be found in Paul’s epistles (Romans through Philemon).

We also see in the age of grace in which we live that we will suffer.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us”

II Cor 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Phil 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death.

Phil 4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

I Cor 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it.

I Cor 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

II Cor 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

II Thes 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.

II Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also shall deny us.

II Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Phil 3:7-8 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea, doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.

How can one preach a healing message when we are being made conformable to his death?

II Cor 4:16 Though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13

    08/31/07 at 11:44 AM
  Reply with quote#3

Ray, please note that healing was not always instantaneous (e.g., Mk 8:22-25; Lk 17:11-14). It looks like you merely "cut and pasted" another person's comments on healing instead of helping answer the concerns of my question. It would be better for you to get out your KJB and study the issue for yourself instead of merely answering a question with someone else's notes.

Ray
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    09/01/07 at 02:34 PM
  Reply with quote#4

Thanks for your instructions. I did cut and paste but it was my study and notes.  You may need to go back and read your comment about the Lord's healing not always healing being instantaneous. Luke 17:14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. Mark 8:25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
In the age of grace, God is no respect of person. In fact God revealed that to Peter Acts 10: 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: The was revealed to Paul also. Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. If this is true then God is not healing people today. If He does not have respect of person, then  if healed one He would have to heal all. Today we are going to suffer and get sick and die. Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. He will heal us all when we get that new body. Today we walk by faith and not by sight. 2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight Healing was a sign for Israel because they had to see sign to believe. John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. I am sorry but no man can lay hands on you today and heal you. If you believe God will heal you by your faith then you are living in the wrong dispensation. Sorry you are not satisfied with my answers. Ray
Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13

    09/01/07 at 05:01 PM
  Reply with quote#5

I guess I disagree with you Ray. I think from scripture that one can still seek healing today although there are rarely any persons who could be considered "healers". The projection of a dispensational framework on scripture is a man made creation. False divisions of scripture lead to false conclusions about scripture. However, I realize that imposing such artificial divisions on scripture is a method that helps many persons understand the Bible. I'm convinced that there are other nondispensational ways of understanding scripture which still allows for a literal reading of the Bible. It's interesting that we all think we're reading scripture literally but we still come up with different ways of understanding it.

Ray
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    09/01/07 at 08:54 PM
  Reply with quote#6

If there is any other way to understand the scripture beside rightly dividing the Bible into dispensations let me know. If you know somebody that has the gift of healing today let me know for I sure need one. If you check the scriptures Jesus never told anybody to go to a doctor and He would give the doctor the ability to heal them. I hope when you get sick that you go to a doctor before you believe in faith healing.

Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13

    09/01/07 at 11:33 PM
  Reply with quote#7

Ray, I appreciate your taking time to comment on my question from your perspective. I do think that someone having the gift of healing would be very rare. On the other hand as I mentioned I believe that the scriptures support the notion of healing today if one has developed faith for their healing. However, if there is any doubt of faith for one's healing then absolutely one should seek the care of a doctor. There are many sad stories of someone who only thought that they had faith for their healing but did not. It's not odd at all that one would lack faith one time and not another time for their healing because humans do not have the faith of Jesus!!! Again, when I'm sick and know that I do not have at that time faith for my healing I go to a doctor--pronto! So, I have nothing against doctors.

As also mentioned, there are many ways to "rightly divide" the Bible--dispensationalism is only one of them. And, as you know, there are different types of dispensationalism. And, many kinds of nondispensationalism also exist. Of course everyone is convinced that how he "rightly divides" scripture is the only correct way. I hear everybody say that the way they divide scripture is the only right way. I think that the midacts view is extreme and creates artificial and unnecessary divisions in scripture. That said, I can affirm that because I believe that Jesus was put to death and shed his blood on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins,  and rose again according to the scriptures, that I'm part of the body of Christ.
Ray
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    09/03/07 at 10:19 PM
  Reply with quote#8

God inspired the Apostle Paul to write 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Since He told Paul to rightly divide the scripture and not only that but to divide truth from truth. It makes sense to me that God would also inspire the Apostle Paul how to divide the Word of truth. He does do that in Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: TIMES PAST God only deals with the Nation of Israel starting with Abraham. The rest of the word (Gentiles) was let go. BUT NOW, God is dealing with all people alike through the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. AGES TO COME Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Ray

Michael
Registered: 08/29/07
Posts: 13

    09/04/07 at 12:01 AM
  Reply with quote#9

Thank you again Ray for your perspective on right division. However, midacts dispensationalism with its emphasis on Pauline revelation is only one of many ways to "rightly divide" the Word of God. Dispensationalists like to emphasize differences, distinctions, and divisions they find in God's Word and minimize the continuity that exists; while nondispensationalists like to emphasize the continuity that occurs across scripture and minimize differences, distinctions, and divisions. The surface of the text sometimes suggests distinctions--but if one looks deeper into God's Word [still taking it literally] continuity emerges as the more important aspect of understanding how God works through time.

rachestewart
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 3

    11/08/07 at 08:07 AM
  Reply with quote#10

Good Morning,
 
WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG?  WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY AND ACCORDING TO WHO'S INTERPRETATION DO WE ACCEPT?  The more I read the more I become confused! (when reading or listening t mans interpretation of the Holy Word.  For almost 30 years I have been searching and trying to understand then I learned of right division.  I came to study the Holy Word with Les Feldick.  Les has a way of teaching that makes the Holy Word come alive and gives one a thirst for more and more of the word. 
 
I came to the net to search out more study info on right division and WHEW!!!!! did I ever become confused!  There seems to be so many different ways of rightly dividing and in all those diff ways each person is adamant! that their way is the only way and the right way!
 
SOOOOOOOOO............who is right and who is wrong?
 
respectfully
rache
Ray
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    11/10/07 at 09:47 PM
  Reply with quote#11

Who is right on how to rightly divide God's Word?
Since we read in Paul's writting to rightly divide the Word of truth, it makes sence to me that Paul should also tell us how to divide the Word of truth.

 (Eph 2:7; Ages to Come; Eph 2:11-12; Times Past: Eph 2: 13 Now)

Times Past: Genesis 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Jesus Christ came under the dispensation of the law. Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

He came to the Nation of Israel only and sent His 12 apostles only to the Nation of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision while He was upon the earth. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

All prophecy given in the scriptures are for Israel. The apostle Paul is saved and given the revelation of the mystery. Peter still preached water baptism for the remission of sins after Jesus Christ had rose from the dead and ascended into the heavens. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

The gentiles had no hope and could only get to God through the Nation of Israel. Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

But now: The apostle Paul is given the dispensation of grace and the body of Christ (the church) has no covenant. 1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The wall of partition has been broken down and now we have access to God by faith. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Galatians 3: 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Ages to come: God will make a new covenant with the Nation of Israel when He returns to rule and reign on the earth. Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: The prophecy about a day of wrath on the earth will take place before the Lord Jesus Christ returns to the earth. Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

When He returns to the earth He will fulfill the covenant made to the Nation of Israel. They will get the land that God promised them. The body of Christ will receive the blessing that God has promised them. Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
rachestewart
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 3

    11/14/07 at 01:14 PM
  Reply with quote#12

Who is right and who is wrong within the way they interpret the Scriptures?
I agree with rightly dividing.  To rightly divide is the only way for the Scriptures to make any sense.  This I have finally come to learn.  But even with in those who rightly divide there is much difference of interpretation. And each and everyone stands upon The Holy Word as well as upon them being right in how they inteepert.  SO.........who is right and who is wrong.
And yes..........I stand on the fact that the BOOK says it and that settles it
BUT........so many teachers, preachers, churches out there are claiming that they and they alonw have the true interpretation and they can't all be right!

faith + nothing
rache
hungry4more
Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 1

    07/20/09 at 10:00 AM
  Reply with quote#13

My husband of 12 years (his wife died of cancer years ago) is a Christian.  He is not a Grace believer.  I am.  There are NO Grace fellowships anywhere near where we live.  We attend a Freewill Baptist Church.  His little grandaughter, who was then about 8 years old, was born with a disease that causes knots to form on her bones and her spine is crooked, she is supposed to wear braces on her legs to protect them from breaking.  She is extremely intelligent, loving and innocent.  She walks fine and never complains (rarely wears her leg braces).  She came to me a while back and said, "Jesus is healing me.  My grandfather (her other grandfather is a Baptist preacher) prayed for me, and my knots are shrinking and I'm going to be healed."  She was excited and pulled up her shirt where I could see LARGE knots on her chest.  "They're shrinking," she said, excitedly.  If anyone had faith in what she had been told, she did. 

I felt like crying.  She was so sincere, so believing.  I don't understand how anyone today can hear/see an innocent child proclaiming healing and not seek to understand why she was not.  Her parents both claim to be Christians, but still no one questions why she is not healed today.  That was almost 4 years ago, and she still has HUGE knots on her body and may eventually require surgery. 

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth (ALL of God's Word is TRUTH) is the only way I can come to understand.  Our pastor would say it was not God's will to heal her or that her faith was not strong enough.  If anything, this child must questions God's love for her.  That's what most who don't rightly divide come to think.  God doesn't hear my prayers or I am not worthy of his healing or I must have done something to deserve this. 

My husband's deceased wife was a Christian as was he.  They prayed, annointed her and expected healing.  It never came.  She died at a young age, leaving behind two girls and one grandson.  My husband was disheartened (I did not know him at the time) in his Christian walk for a while.  "But, it must not have been God's will to heal her, she's in a better place."  This is what he says. 

I know that this body of flesh I live in is dying everyday.  But, I also know through reading God's Word, that I am ALREADY seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.  My healing is complete, but it's the INNER man who will have eternal life through Him.  If all were healed today, no one would die.  Healing was for a sign to Israel.  They were to expect their Messiah to heal, and HE did. 

When churches today annoint and proclaim healing, it can only dishearten and sadden those who never understand the Word rightly divided.


Ray
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    07/24/09 at 09:03 PM
  Reply with quote#14

Hungryformore, I can only say amen Paul writes in Romans 8:26 that we don't know what to pray for as we ought. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. At that time, he had not received a full revelation. He ask the Lord to hear him three time but the Lord told him that His grace was sufficient. 2 Corinthians 12: 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. When he writes Ephesians and Colossians he knows what to pray for as he ought. Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Colossians 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
It is so sad when people think that they have faith to be healed. When preacher tell the sick that they can be healed if they have the faith, they destroy that person. I know two blind people that went to a "so called" healing service. The preacher put oil on their head, all the church prayed for hours. What happen nothing. They were still blind. The preacher finally told them that they didn't have the faith to be healed. That man destroyed their faith. Divide the Bible any way you wish but there is still only one way. Believe you can be healed if you have the faith. It does not work in the age of grace.

Ray
TELEMAN4200
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 5

    08/28/09 at 02:36 AM
  Reply with quote#15

Micheal
 I was involved in the charismatic/pentecostal movement for over 10 years. I never saw a miraculus healing or miracle. I heard about them and was told by fellow brothers and sisters about them. I really wanted to see them just once. I really don't know if someone has the gift of healing today.I do believe they were signs for the Jews. Paul couldn't heal everybody at the last of his ministry. I know there are many false miracles and healings going on today. I do understand how you feel and believe I think? Maybe I don't. I just wanted to share this with you.
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 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)